Write Biblically Accurate Songs For The Church with Dr. Matt Mouzakis

Matt Mouzakis holds an MA in Biblical Studies and Biblical Languages from Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary, and a ThD in Biblical Studies (New Testament Backgrounds) from Covenant Theological Seminary. He serves as the Worship and Discipleship Pastor at The Point Church in Seymour, Indiana. 

Matt is passionate about helping the church rediscover the beauty of Scripture, with a focus on the Kingdom of God, the teachings of Jesus, and the New Testament’s engagement with Second Temple Judaism.

He is the author of Principalities, Powers, and Allegiances, based on his doctoral dissertation exploring how passages like Romans 13, 1 Peter 2, and Revelation 13 speak to unseen powers and political allegiance within a biblical framework.

Matt lives in Indiana with his wife, Audrie, and their four children, and loves serving the local church through worship, discipleship, and teaching.

Audrie and Matt release music as Eden to Eden.  

Listen to Expedition44, a King Jesus discipleship podcast, with Matt and Dr. Will Ryan.

Take the simple 10-minute Songwriter Personality Test.

Apply now for the Worship Songwriter Mentorship.  Our foundational course for all songwriters.  Over 700 worship songwriters have taken and graduated from the 9-week cohort-based mentorship program.  You can apply on the WritingWorship.co website.

Chapters

• 2:30 Mouzakis Songwriting Backstory
• 7:39 Writing Worship Community Impact
• 12:28 Writing and Releasing "The Better Way"
• 17:35 Reading "The Sermon on the Mount" Every Day for 30 Days
• 19:56 Geeking Out On Theology, Greek and New Testament Studies
• 27:01 Expedition44 Theology Podcast
• 30:10 Why Writing Biblically Accurate Songs Is Important For Worship
• 37:08 Developing a Church Songwriting Culture
• 42:22 Wrap Up

Transcript

Eric Nordhoff: 0:37

Matt music, hey! Welcome! Welcome to the current the courage cast. Oh, my gosh. that's my old podcast I can't believe. I did that. Let me start over Matt Musakis. Welcome to the writing worship, podcast. Good to have you on.

Matt Mouzakis: 0:55

Hey? Thanks! I'm excited to be here with you.

Eric Nordhoff: 0:58

Man it has been. You've you and Odd, your wife have been coming to Franklin you came to. I think, our 1st conference.

Matt Mouzakis: 1:10

We've been at all of the conferences you've been.

Eric Nordhoff: 1:11

To every single one of them.

Matt Mouzakis: 1:13

Yep.

Eric Nordhoff: 1:13

And I think the mentorship both of you, have been a part of writing club. You know. All of the above, you guys have really dived in even from your Wisconsin days. I think you.

Matt Mouzakis: 1:29

Writers round. Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 1:30

Hold on!

Matt Mouzakis: 1:31

Of writing worship people there.

Eric Nordhoff: 1:33

Yeah, tell me, tell me about you know what led you? What was life like? Obviously you're a worship leader, pastor, theologian in my mind. If I have theology questions, I'm coming to you. And and it's been a while, we've needed to have you on the podcast for a while because I want you to. I want people to know that you have. You come with quite a bit of authority, and work your work diving into Scripture, knowing the Word of God. And then how that applies to the believer. You just have a great like skill, set talent stack as a musician songwriter. You know your theology. So you just you bring a lot, and and hopefully we'll be able to cover all of it. But tell me about you, you and odds journey prior to kind of coming into the writing worship community, and kind of finding us. What were some of the things that you were needing or wanting, or what situation were you in that that kind of led you there.

Matt Mouzakis: 2:42

Yeah. Well, Audrey, she kind of came to the Lord in middle school like early high school, and her pastor taught her to play guitar, and she immediately kind of started writing a bunch of her own songs. Then for me, I kind of grew up in church, and I played on the Youth worship team, learned guitar. When I was about 10 years old, 1011 years old and was playing helping lead our Youth Group worship team and my youth pastor there, who's actually worship pastor. Now, out in the Washington DC. Area Bill really poured a lot into me and kind of developed that in my life I grew up in Michigan, and I played guitar on our adult worship team and just really really loved leading worship. I was in high school. I was in a ska band, and and we we wrote a lot of we wrote our own music for that, and that's kind of I'm a chords ranger personality, and so I would on guitar like, write all the horn parts, and that, and then transpose them into whatever key, the because we had trumpet. A saxophone trombone player, then would would transpose them and and write. Our trumpet player mainly wrote poetry, and so I put kind of the poetry to to music, and that was kind of like my introduction into like songwriting. Was, was that so? I had that paired with my passion for leading worship from a young age right after high school. Well, wait, hold on.

Eric Nordhoff: 4:17

Stop. You can't. Just yeah, I've got it. I've got to talk to you about the Ska band. So this must have been in the nineties, because Ska was huge in the nineties.

Matt Mouzakis: 4:25

Yeah, it would have been. Yeah. Late nineties, early, 2 thousands.

Eric Nordhoff: 4:29

Okay, okay. So you carried over into the threshold of the early 2 thousands. What were your influences? Why did you pick a Ska band that seemed like what everybody did that was musical in high school.

Matt Mouzakis: 4:43

So my youth pastor lent me a 5 iron frenzy. CD. And I fell in love with it. Yep, so, handbook for the sellout that that album I was. Yeah. I listened to it and just fell in love with Ska music. At that time.

Eric Nordhoff: 4:57

I worked that record. I worked that record. Those were. Those were fun days. They were influenced by like the 77 s. Big back. Then it seemed like every Christian concert or not concert, but festival that you went to. Had Ska going on? It was either really heavy rock or Ska was like the 2 primary things.

Matt Mouzakis: 5:21

Yeah. Supertones were big and.

Eric Nordhoff: 5:22

Supertones. Yes.

Matt Mouzakis: 5:23

So insiders. Yep, all of them, all of them. So yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 5:27

That's cool. Alright. So so you leave high school you meet.

Matt Mouzakis: 5:31

Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 5:31

Audrey in college.

Matt Mouzakis: 5:34

No, we were both missionaries, and we met because we were working for the same mission organization, which was, they did, outreach and youth evangelism through music. So they so we both met. We weren't on the same team. The team that I was part of was in Denmark, in Germany, and so I was over there, and Audrey's was on the in the northwest us, so we kind of hit it off because all the teams trained together, and we signed up for a year, and we started dating through, meeting there, and I moved to Wisconsin and.

Eric Nordhoff: 6:09

That's where she was from.

Matt Mouzakis: 6:10

Yes, there's yep. She was on. Lived on the Wisconsin, Illinois border, and we've we lived there for quite a few years. I kind of needed a job when I moved to town and the church that her parents were going to had a worship leader opening there and

Eric Nordhoff: 6:30

Was that on Lake Geneva, where you were pastoring for a long time. Yeah.

Matt Mouzakis: 6:33

Yep, yep, so it wasn't the same church that I was at for a while, but I was. I was there, worked for Walgreens for a while as a as a store manager, and eventually we we started going to the church that I was at for 16 years, and was on staff for 10 years there. And we yeah, we just plugged in and and just love that church and just the culture of worship that it already had there was was great and But then, you know, like Covid hit and Audrey and I had, since we'd both kind of had background in songwriting. We had attempted it together for a little bit with, but we didn't really have like. Audrey had a lot of experience writing on her own. I had experience of not so much on the the lyric side, or anything, but just like the more of the instrumental side of things. And so, Audrey, we we met Robbie and Bria. Yeah, they came. I met Robbie through some worship leader, Facebook group, and he and Brio were traveling around and needed a place to stay, and some places to play.

Eric Nordhoff: 7:50

For for the listener. So Robbie and Bria Valderrama, with Spring Hill Studios. They also run our writing club and are doing a fantastic job with that. Just to kind of give some context.

Matt Mouzakis: 8:03

So they did a worship night at our church and stayed at our house, and Bria was the one who kind of turned Audrey onto mentorship.

Eric Nordhoff: 8:13

Hmm.

Matt Mouzakis: 8:14

So this was like right before Covid that we met them. But then, during Covid, like Audrey, had kind of pushed it off, and she's like well, she was home. She was a school nurse, and she took the mentorship.

Eric Nordhoff: 8:25

There you go.

Matt Mouzakis: 8:26

And it gave her like a ton of tools, and she was super excited about it. So she signed me up as soon as she finished. So she did the I think the spring one and I did the fall one. Yeah, and the rest is history. We joined the writing club, and where part of that Audrey's been involved in the writing club. Like all the way up till now I've been in and out because I was working on my master's and doctoral work, and it just I would I would write with people when I could, and she would. Usually she was really good at dragging me into rights.

Eric Nordhoff: 8:59

Right. Well, Writing Club is great. If you have the time and put it, you get what you put into it right. If you if you're because it's it's about putting in the reps. There's more than that, too, but it sometimes it feels like it's not worth in the investment unless you're able to really give what you need to give. So yeah, and that's that's tough, because not everybody's in the same season people come and go. It's you know, sometimes there's there's a time to invest, and sometimes there's not, and I know you all are kind of heading into a little bit of a different season. I'm seeing music. You you have. You write and record music together. Do you want to share a little bit about your your music that you're releasing.

Matt Mouzakis: 9:45

Yeah, so Audrey and I have. We've written a lot of stuff together, and with people that we've met, especially through the writing worship community and going to different retreats, like Karina's retreat in North Carolina, with Lisa and the.

Eric Nordhoff: 10:03

North and Friday dates. Yep, and the different writing days that you've.

Matt Mouzakis: 10:08

Had through writing worship. And so we had a backlog of songs that we really wanted to do. And we so we started kind of this collective that it's mainly Audrey and I. But we invite a lot of our friends kind of into it if we've written with them, or that it's called Eden to Eden, which is kind of the meaning behind, that is, on the 1st pages of the Bible you have the Garden of Eden, and in the new creation. It looks very much like Eden on the last page of the Bible, and kind of in this in between. There's this path that's leading us back from where we fell into, where God is bringing all of creation. So that's kind of the meaning behind our collective name. I guess you could say.

Eric Nordhoff: 10:47

Yeah. do you guys get to go out and travel and kind of tour the the music? Or is it more? Mostly online? Because I know you have a big family, and you have other commitments. So I'm just curious about that.

Matt Mouzakis: 11:04

Well, we've only had this going for a little over a year, but we've had a lot of local opportunities to play they we've played in our local park. They do worship nights and think we've done that 3 times now. we've been doing some of our songs, some of our more worship stuff in church at our church, sharing that with our congregation, a bunch of friends in Wisconsin, some of our friends planted a church, and we go up there 3 or 4 times a year and and lead worship. We were just up there last week and and got to kind of do a concert slash worship night with a bunch of our original music.

Eric Nordhoff: 11:46

You moved to Southern Indiana.

Matt Mouzakis: 11:50

Yep. About a year ago.

Eric Nordhoff: 11:51

A year ago, and now you are the worship leader. are you? What's your title? Pastor? Worship leader?

Matt Mouzakis: 11:59

So I do worship and discipleship. So I do all the worship and tech side of things, plus I'm I oversee like all the the group ministry, small groups, Bible studies, things like that. So all of our.

Eric Nordhoff: 12:12

The point.

Matt Mouzakis: 12:13

Yep, the point. Yep.

Eric Nordhoff: 12:14

So what's the point? I had to ask that I had to ask, Who's the point? Jesus.

Matt Mouzakis: 12:21

Yeah. Jesus, okay.

Eric Nordhoff: 12:23

I love it. But tell you just released a new song that I think is so timely, just curious about the origins of the better way.

Matt Mouzakis: 12:34

Yeah. So we wrote this 2 years ago at Karina's Mountain Fire Retreat. So it was a co-write with Robbie Valderrama, also Lisa Simmons and Carolyn Petrovsky. So the 4 of us wrote on this. And. yeah, it was a really interesting right? We we kind of got into some deep like like Robbie, and I always do. Robbie and I talk a lot about theology, and he's a deep thinker, too, and the other Lisa and and Carolyn are as well. So we had a good little Bible study, and I think we spent like an hour and a half just digging into Scripture. And then this kind of just came out from that of just looking at the world and the way it is, and how the Bible often describes. We use this phrase, Babylon. I always I just joked that I wanted to write a song with the word Babylon in it. So in Babylon, in Scripture is kind of almost like this paradigm or this theme of not only empire which is like violence and war and power, nationalism, tribalism, consumerism, individualism, all of these things, but also, when you look inside in us. Babylon also depicts in the Bible exile like being alienated from the ways of God. So we kind of paired those 2 things up, of how we see not only the ways of empire influenced by evil powers in the world, but also how humans themselves have this war going on inside which overflows into systems and even our individual sin. So the song is kind of a lament about about that, about the way the world is. It's kind of almost channels, almost like a Bob Dylan antiwar type. Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 14:28

Well, I wondered about the origins because it kind of released right when the Us. Bombed Iran.

Matt Mouzakis: 14:37

And yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 14:38

Summer might have been been like right at that time that day, or or right around that day, and.

Matt Mouzakis: 14:44

-

Eric Nordhoff: 14:45

And it was.

Matt Mouzakis: 14:45

After.

Eric Nordhoff: 14:46

Yeah, I think it was did you? Did, I mean, obviously, you didn't know that would happen. No, so I'm just curious if you were able to enter into any discussions with people about that topic, or if if you had some some thoughts on.

Matt Mouzakis: 15:05

We had. We had a few people that reached out to us after, like Audrey just picked the date to release it. We just had it scheduled for sometime sometime in June, at the end of June. And kind of couldn't have released at a better time. But we had a few people reach out to us and be a just say thank you for putting words to the way that they felt about something of stuff they couldn't communicate, and I think that's the beauty of music sometimes. And also I just think that God planned the timing for it, and I'm glad that it's even if it's a few people that it's helped give them. I guess, a way to lament, and a way to pray, and things like that. I think that even when we see in the Psalms, and I know Christy's huge on Christy is huge on and psalming in that, like, you see, like almost 70% of the Psalms are laments.

Eric Nordhoff: 15:59

Yeah.

Matt Mouzakis: 16:00

And so the song is almost a lament, but it kind of ends with a flicker of hope at the end, because it's all about Jesus being the better way and walking kind of that sermon on the Mount Way that he calls us to live, and actually in my own. I guess devotional time for the month of July. I've committed to reading the Sermon on the Mount every single day, Matthew 5 through 7, and Luke 6, just to develop that better way in me, because I know that we all kind of tend to, you know. favor the ways of Babylon in us at times, you know. And so I think songs like these are important, that at the end it it talks about that we were never meant to die, but to walk in communion with Jesus, and the very last line of the song is, Help us find the better way. So it kind of leaves it open, ended where there is a better way. But we need to rely on the Spirit to help us find that. And Jesus has laid that out. I think Jesus really communicates that at the end of Matthew, chapter 7, where he talks about a narrow gate and a wide gate, and a narrow road, and a wide road, and a sandy foundation, and a solid rock, which sometimes we put those in the context of like heaven and hell. But it's at the end of the Sermon on the Mount. It's about the way of following the way he's called us to live. or the other way. The way of Babylon, which leads to destruction.

Eric Nordhoff: 17:30

Right. Yeah, he really does not mince words in the Sermon on the Mount. I it was one of my favorite things to record. I have a quiet time channel for music and meditation. And when I was reading through Matthew 5 through 7, I wanted to go back. So actually. I'm just reading all of the New Testament through in 40 days. That's kind of my plan at the moment for the summer. and just finished Matthew 5 and 7 just started yesterday. And yeah, it sometimes when you read the whole New Testament. you you can't. You can't give yourself, or you don't give yourself time to resonate or meditate on the Scripture, but that is one. And I didn't even think about Luke 6. But that definitely, Matthew 5. Through 7 to listen to that, and hear and read that every day.

Matt Mouzakis: 18:38

For 30 days.

Eric Nordhoff: 18:40

Wow! What did God tell you today? You maybe it was just what you mentioned.

Matt Mouzakis: 18:46

That was kind of what over the last few days those things have been popping out, and the part that's right sandwiched in between it is like you'll know them by their fruit. which he's recalling everything that he just taught them, like about the you know, loving your enemy, turning the other cheek. You know the don't not returning evil for evil. I don't tell you anymore to that eye, for an eye is a thing, but, bless those who persecute you.

Eric Nordhoff: 19:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Oh, there's so much the Sermon on the Mount is is is a as a foundational series of books, sermons, chapters. That that man I I need to go back to as well, because I would imagine a certain part of it will stand out to you every day. Probably would be good to do that. And then journal. Kind of what God said that day to you specifically about the verse or Scripture. Yeah, tell me about your theology, your doctorate you are Dr. Matt Moozakis.

Matt Mouzakis: 20:00

Yeah, I know.

Eric Nordhoff: 20:01

To? Or Dr. Matthew Musicus. Right? What? What led to that? Why is that? How has that impacted your songwriting?

Matt Mouzakis: 20:12

Yeah. Well, what led to? It is so. The church that I was at for 16 years. They wanted me to come on staff about maybe 6 years or so after I was there, and and I agreed to. I pretty much just had an associates in business at the time, and I real I'm I'm really thought that. And I felt the the Lord pressing on my heart. And maybe and this is just for me. I'm not saying that everybody has to do this of at least, if if I'm being called to ministry, I should probably know something about it right? And so I started working there as worship director, but also going to school. I was like, all right. I'll just get a degree in Biblical studies, and I've always read loved reading the Bible and studying the text of Scripture. I've I've always had kind of a passion for that, and and like that ever since I was young. So I just really just fell in love with school Bible backgrounds, Biblical studies. I got an associates in that. and I was gonna just stop there. And then I decided one of my last classes. I really got really fell in love with Greek. And so I got my master's in Biblical languages and Greek, Greek and Hebrew, and then A friend of mine encouraged me to to keep going and study under him for my doctorate, and I eventually, 2 years ago, I defended my dissertation and graduated with a doctorate in New Testament. So.

Eric Nordhoff: 21:56

Fantastic.

Matt Mouzakis: 21:57

And I just published my dissertation a couple months ago, so, as a book.

Eric Nordhoff: 22:04

Give us a link to that.

Matt Mouzakis: 22:05

Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 22:07

Yeah, put it in. Put it in. Look at that.

Matt Mouzakis: 22:10

Done.

Eric Nordhoff: 22:11

Oh, it is there it is! So it's it's actually published. Wow!

Matt Mouzakis: 22:14

Yeah. So we did it on Amazon.

Eric Nordhoff: 22:16

Is. Let me see how thick that is. Whoa! Those aren't.

Matt Mouzakis: 22:21

So.

Eric Nordhoff: 22:22

And those aren't big words, big print.

Matt Mouzakis: 22:24

It's 403 pages.

Eric Nordhoff: 22:27

400. He just Matt, Matt. I'm I feel a lot dumber now. But no, I'm kidding. I am blown away by that. That's so so impressive. What were you? What was your focus on the dissertation? What were you arguing? Is it an argument.

Matt Mouzakis: 22:51

What was a research question about it was mainly about what the Bible says about how governments and spiritual powers are tied together, and what the Christian response is for living in that. So it's a lot. A lot of it is focused on. What is the kingdom of God and the call of the kingdom of God within living within the kingdoms of the world.

Eric Nordhoff: 23:19

Hmm.

Matt Mouzakis: 23:19

What should the Christian response be? And kind of? There's 3 different ways, historically, that people have talked about engaging with the empires of this world. What's called Christianism is Christians should kind of infiltrate and change these systems of society by getting involved with it. And then there's the Separationists, which are more like Anabaptist, or the Mennonites, or Amish, which totally separate yourself, or in the 1st century that would have been the Essenes, the Dead Sea Scroll community which separate themselves. And then there's a 3rd way which is prophetic witness, so that you are a prophetic witness to the ways of God from the margins. But what the way? But God's kingdom is within the church. because God eventually says that all of these nations and powers will be put under his feet on the last day. And so I examine some of the common proof texts through this lens in the Old Testament it talks about when God disinherits the nations at Babel that they go off and worship these other gods, and they're actually ruled by them. And the intertestamental period and the New Testament follow that train of thought all the way through. And so it's kind of a kingdom of God and kingdoms of this world. And what's the Christian response to hires and politics and stuff.

Eric Nordhoff: 24:43

Do you make an argument, or did you land on one.

Matt Mouzakis: 24:47

I just go by all right. So the evidence in the Biblical text points to prophetic witness more over all the rest. That's where that's kind of where I landed, based on research evidence. Looking at the text in the New Testament that deal with the the governments at that time, and and stuff so.

Eric Nordhoff: 25:11

That's not. That's probably the also very interesting, and seems to be the one that I see. A lot of people were connected with going towards. I feel like our parents generation were very much. and we're very much like infiltrate the culture. But then there was a period of time also, where it seemed very popular to to avoid all things of the world and and not be Amish necessarily, or Mennonite, but but basically live separated from this world. But the the what do you call it? The prophetic.

Matt Mouzakis: 25:57

Prophetic, Witness.

Eric Nordhoff: 25:58

Prophetic witness engages with the kingdom.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:03

So you live in the midst. You lived in the midst of the culture. But you're not.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:08

You're.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:08

Identified.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:09

Not of it.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:10

Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:11

In in a short, shorthanded way.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:13

Sure. Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:14

Yeah, yeah, see, I could have just done that in one page, Matt, I didn't. I didn't.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:18

Yeah, right on.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:19

I'm just kidding. No, that's that's so impressive. I would love to dive into that and read it because it's so intriguing to me. I well, please, I'll go buy one on Amazon. Is that on Amazon? Yeah, it's $20, I think, for the hard cover and 1299 for the.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:40

Paperback. Oh, something like that great paperback. Yeah. Awesome. Published it on Amazon. So.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:46

Okay, did you release an audio version.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:49

No, I haven't yet.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:50

Okay.

Matt Mouzakis: 26:51

I don't know if I will or not.

Eric Nordhoff: 26:53

Yeah, that kind of leads me to expedition 44, your, your, podcast that you do with your friend, that you started in in Wisconsin. Yeah, you're still doing it. You're doing it remotely together. Tell us, tell us about expedition 44.

Matt Mouzakis: 27:11

Yeah, so it's kind of like, I guess, almost like a project of my friend Ryan and I. He was actually my doctoral supervisor. Okay? And we, we wrote that book together because he oversaw my dissertation. So we worked on a lot of that together. And yeah, we have a, it started as a Youtube channel. But now we're like, kind of taking the audio and putting it into podcast form as well. And we've made like 300 videos or so on all sorts of different topics in theology. He's got a doctorate in Hebrew. So he's an Old Testament guy. And I'm a New Testament Guy. And so we kind of combine our strengths and talk about. We've done Bible studies through whole books, taken different topics in the Bible, like atonement, original sin, hell, things like that. And looking at looking at it. Biblical perspective, early church fathers, what they say about it.

Eric Nordhoff: 28:12

Do you have regular listeners that participate, that go through the book, study with you, book, study with you, or Bible, study with you.

Matt Mouzakis: 28:20

A lot of them were used for the seminary that he teaches at almost like we use them almost as lectures sometimes, but they're out there. So we engage a lot in the classroom and we'd use them. I used them a lot at my last church because we did Wednesday night Bible studies there. And I would use this to engage with people there. I mean, people email us.

Eric Nordhoff: 28:41

Would they listen to it and then come back? And it would be a discussion group.

Matt Mouzakis: 28:45

Sometimes yeah, yeah. And then often, we'd either discuss or I would go further than even the stuff we did on the podcast in the class. So yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 28:54

That's fascinating. Yeah, I I endorse it. I've listened to it several episodes and really enjoy the way you, your unique perspectives that you have, and anything little different now that we're wondering.

Matt Mouzakis: 29:09

I'm in Indiana, and he's in Wisconsin. And so what we've been doing is interviewing different scholars and books of different books that we've we've loved. And we've actually Ivp, which is a big.

Eric Nordhoff: 29:22

University, Press.

Matt Mouzakis: 29:24

Yep, Intervarsity Press. We're partners with them now, and they send us books, and if there's a book we like, they set up an interview like, let us interview people. And so that's kind of been cool that we've been able to partner with them. So I wonder if there's some other publishers that you could get connected to to be a partner.

Eric Nordhoff: 29:42

I think if you went to national religious broadcasters, Nrb. if you've not been before, it'd be worth going, you might. You might make connections with with more of those publishers there. because they all display they all exhibit every year. It's either in Nashville or Dallas. and it's in February. So I'd recommend you come.

Matt Mouzakis: 30:05

But you asked a little bit ago about how theology influences.

Eric Nordhoff: 30:09

Songwriter.

Matt Mouzakis: 30:10

Songwriting. Yeah, I think it's it's huge. And I think that. And I think theology and songwriting is super important. I'm reminded of the quote by Gordon Fee, he says, show me your church's songs, and I'll show you their theology. So I think that's kind of it's true, but it's a it's a bold statement. And often, I mean, maybe this is just the way my brain works is. I won't always a month or so down the road. Remember the 3 Points, or 5 points whatever from my pastor's sermon. but I will remember the course of these songs right.

Eric Nordhoff: 30:48

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Mouzakis: 30:49

Yeah, cause we're we as songwriters and even worship leaders are putting theology on people's lips. And we're which is then through song, a vehicle to be ingrained in their mind because they'll meditate on it. They'll be singing it in the car. They'll be singing it with their kids. They'll sing in the shower. They'll be singing it throughout their day. And I think it's just so important that, having good theology and songs will become ingrained in us. So we were just at family camp with my family this past week in Wisconsin, over 4th of July, and you know the song. Yes, I will. It's. Oh, that's great! I love! I love that song, the the the teacher there, the pastor that was kind of leading the the teaching times at family camp. He said he talked about how he went through a time that was very, very troubling, like a huge struggle. And in his life, and he said that that song reminded him about what his posture should be in times of trial. Yes, I will lift you high in the lowest valley, and he said it wasn't any sermon or anything else that did that. But he said it was that song that reminded him of what his posture should be, and what his theology should be in times of trials. And he's so. He talked about how important even songs were, because we are teaching our people the things they should believe that are true about God, things they should believe that they're true in the struggle, even like we talked about lament how to lament, you know.

Eric Nordhoff: 32:26

-

Matt Mouzakis: 32:26

All of those things. So yeah. And even Paul, he writes in Colossians 3, 16, it says, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another's through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. So he connects teaching there with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs that our song should be teaching us to let Christ's Word dwell richly within our hearts.

Eric Nordhoff: 32:51

Yeah. Oh, no doubt about the connection between songs teaching us, I mean, I I can't tell you. you know. Talk about Babylon songs that you, the songs in your heart, the songs that you consume, they're teaching you.

Matt Mouzakis: 33:10

And you know.

Eric Nordhoff: 33:11

They're they're not always. And and this is why people, you know talk about avoiding secular music altogether, because ultimately they're teaching you something. Possibly. How do you feel about listening to non biblically sound music in general?

Matt Mouzakis: 33:39

Mean. I I think the for me. Personally, I'm not going to tell anybody else necessarily what to do. I tend to worship, listen to mainly worship music. But I also, I mean, I tend to listen to podcasts more than I listen to worship music honestly.

Eric Nordhoff: 33:54

Yeah, Podcast, first.st

Matt Mouzakis: 33:56

Yeah, there's music, but I do have quite a few like like secular bands and artists that I I enjoy, and I mainly.

Eric Nordhoff: 34:09

Do you enjoy them for the musical.

Matt Mouzakis: 34:12

Yeah, more to the instrumental side than than anything I I think.

Eric Nordhoff: 34:18

Yeah.

Matt Mouzakis: 34:20

So I don't have anything really against it. I just say, I think we need to be aware of what's forming us and deforming us. And if it does, if you notice it having a negative effect on you by doing that, then I think it's an area to check yeah in your life, because I think some people have deep enough roots. It's not really going to affect them where others are might be more pliable in their spiritual formation.

Eric Nordhoff: 34:50

Maybe I'm wrong in this. Correct me if I'm wrong. But listening to secular music or non-christian music, or just mainstream music isn't a sin. No, it's what you potentially do with it, or how it influences you that could potentially lead to sin.

Matt Mouzakis: 35:10

Yep, yeah. Yeah. So I love in practicing the way John Mark Comer talks about that. We are always being formed. But we need to be intentional about what we allow to form us.

Eric Nordhoff: 35:21

Right.

Matt Mouzakis: 35:22

So we're always being conformed into something.

Eric Nordhoff: 35:25

True about songwriting, and you know Chrissy talks a lot about her daily disciplines of psalming, two-way journaling. spending time with God. That's her relationship time. It's her time with Scripture. And it really does, you know, and songwriters will ask her, well, how do I? I'm feeling really dry. I'm feeling really dry. I'm not really getting anything, and I'm I'm just kind of got writer writer's block. Well, I think it's a symptom of not not resonating with the Lord through Scripture and journaling, Chrissy has content for days. I've never heard her complain about writer's block ever it's because I think she just is full of Jesus. You know as much as she can be, as much as she needs to be, and wants to be. She is constantly that bucket is just being poured into from from her time with the Lord. And I, just hopefully, maybe that's an encouragement to any songwriters out there.

Matt Mouzakis: 36:43

Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 36:44

Oh, that if you're experiencing that writer's block or feeling dry from a content standpoint, then that would be the 1st place I would go and form that habit of doing that because you are formed, you are being formed one way or another. Yeah. Yep. well, Matt, this is this has been really enlightening any advice you have for songwriters or or worship leaders. I know you recently had Sharon Bird and Chrissy and Rachel Thomas up in Indiana to be with the point. and you had a writer's weekend or Friday, Saturday. How important is that to your team, to your group of songwriters, and to you to help to serve the the songwriting community in in where you are.

Matt Mouzakis: 37:44

Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. We we loved having them and it It poured immensely into them. And I think the thing that since we've only been here a year, and as we've had conversations, people have expressed interest in learning about songwriting, but I've never like done it before, so it was kind of a crash course into like, how do you? How do you start this? How do you build this culture? And I just between the all the sessions that they did there, and I think it really gave us a great great head. Start into what we want to do at the point, which is, which is, give. give language to our culture here, but through through song, and also have it scripturally, Biblically based, you know, theologically sound. and that so I thought it gave us, gave them a lot of tools to put in their toolbox.

Eric Nordhoff: 38:47

Yeah.

Matt Mouzakis: 38:47

And now it's up to us to take that and keep exercising that muscle and doing that. And we've kind of hit a busy season over the summer, so we haven't been as active in it. But we're planning is when the fall hits to start having writing days on like Saturday mornings once a month, maybe, or or so, and start writing towards things that our pastor is going to be preaching on because we plan 6 months out in advance of what our series are, what our what our sermons are gonna be. And so we're gonna start writing towards those those type of things. Because. yeah, we're we're planned 6 months out. So why not take some of those concepts that we're gonna be stepping into in the months to come and helping put some language to it. So yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 39:31

Any tips for the worship leader, who maybe doesn't have a pastor who sees the vision for that. adding music, complementing music with his sermons or their sermons.

Matt Mouzakis: 39:44

Yeah. well, I think it's really important to have leadership buy in if you're going to be using them in that. But I think more than just sharing our songs with people. It's I think songwriting for me is more than like putting stuff out. There has has then formational for me. It's it's a form of worship, because ultimately it's it's something between you and God. Right? It's it's your form of of worship and singing a new song to him and glorify, giving him glory for the talents that he's. He's given you. And so I would start with that because you and maybe your pastor will come. Come along, you know and just have conversations at my previous church. They were fine with us, sharing songs that Audrey and I had written, but there wasn't really an emphasis of wanting. like our church to write songs really like they were like fine if you did it, and fine if you didn't.

Eric Nordhoff: 40:51

Right.

Matt Mouzakis: 40:52

But here it's like our our pastor wants us to write. Like he's like he's like. It'd be awesome to have this. And he's was a previous worship leader. So he's involved also with like he was at the writing event, and he was there.

Eric Nordhoff: 41:05

Brings more dimension to the entire experience, and it allows you, like you said, to carry the Word of God in your heart throughout the week. You might not remember his 3 bullet points, but you'll remember the chorus and sing it. If it's a worship song, it may not be, it might just be a song that speaks to that theme. It's exciting. And yeah, do you think those will be more officially recorded and released? Was that the thinking as well? Or is that more secondary? And not that? Not that.

Matt Mouzakis: 41:43

I mean, that's part of the eventual vision like we talked about like, because he usually does a series like a series for every month like well, he'll have 12 for the year. And what if we write a song for every series? And then, at the end of the year, release those 12 songs, even if they're acoustic versions, or something like that.

Eric Nordhoff: 42:01

No.

Matt Mouzakis: 42:02

For the church to remember where we were for the last year.

Eric Nordhoff: 42:04

Yeah. yeah, I think that's wonderful. It's wonderful. And you have all the skills and the ability to probably pretty quickly record record them and and make sure they're they're made available. So I think this is wonderful. I'm I'm incredibly excited for what you're what you're doing. what you bring the the congregation. The community there is. I know they're grateful for you and Audrey and the ministry that you bring. and just you. You are high quality. Individuals have always thought that from the very beginning your coachable teachable, you're curious. You bring. You have a lot of talent and skill that you've acquired and learned, and I think the way God is using you is is really really special, and I pray that there continues to be more spiritual growth and out outpouring of the Holy Spirit. just as more people are impacted by the ministry that you and Audrey bring, and and to a greater extent that the Church offers to the community. We want to be a part of that. We want to link arms with that. And we're going to very. very much. So want to promote that and see that be duplicated in other communities across the globe. That's the the hope. But it always starts with someone that has a vision that is willing to be coachable. I think you are a great example, or or model for others to follow. As they are wanting to do the same things. My hope and prayer is that the people are resonated, resonating with what you're saying, and in their own unique way, the way God created them, that he will use them to impart the gifts that they have into the community, and and really make a kingdom difference.

Matt Mouzakis: 44:12

Thanks. Yeah. Appreciate those kind words. And I'm like Audrey and I. We both love writing worship and what it's done in our lives, how it's given us these songwriting tools and equipped us to to do these things in our churches so like we're deeply grateful for for the equipping that it. It's given us to do the work of the ministry. So so appreciate to you and and Chrissy and all the the rest of the team there at writing worship because we've benefited greatly from what you guys have poured into our lives. And so we honor you guys as well.

Eric Nordhoff: 44:49

No? Well, I I want to see you give back also also. I if I hope you'll I think an idea I had. While I was listening to you is Matt should do a song workshop. for with theology in mind, with the, with the so listening to songs, and then speaking into the theology. That's if it's sound, or if it's not sound, or you know all of that, I think would be interesting to hear your thoughts as you're as we're listening to songs in a song, sharing workshop. Kind of environment. Would you like that? That sounds like fun.

Matt Mouzakis: 45:27

That that yeah, that'd be fun.

Eric Nordhoff: 45:30

I'm gonna tell Robbie to do that, because that would be really fun. Or maybe we can do a webinar for the community and just do that specifically, that'd be really interesting.

Matt Mouzakis: 45:40

I think it's important, like, it's important for worship leaders to have sound theology also. But if they don't have to go get a doctorate. Necessarily, I'm like We all, as the body of Christ, have different gifts, and this happens to be something that I love like, get shoulder to shoulder with somebody who is like a theology nut and have them review your songs like, Yeah, I would always, before we like would play stuff in church, I would hand our our lyric sheet to our our elder board and like, say, Hey, I'd like to, or give it to email it to some of our pastors, I'm like, hey, here's a song that I would like to share in church. Here's the lyrics to it. Let me know what you think.

Eric Nordhoff: 46:20

Put your filter on the on the make sure that we're we're speaking soundly.

Matt Mouzakis: 46:26

Yeah.

Eric Nordhoff: 46:27

The Word of God. Now that's that's as easy as it is, and there's plenty of community around you to do that as a.

Matt Mouzakis: 46:33

To do that. Yeah. Yep.

Eric Nordhoff: 46:35

Matt. Thanks. For the time today this has been super fun. What are some ways that people can get connected with you? I know expedition 44. The podcast is one way. So look that up. Eden to Eden, look up your music on all the music platforms, Dsps, apple music, spotify Amazon. Youtube. Music? But yeah, if they want to visit the point, we'll put the link to the point.

Matt Mouzakis: 47:05

Yeah, go to the point.com.

Eric Nordhoff: 47:08

Go to the point.com. That is actually the website name.

Matt Mouzakis: 47:11

Yep.

Eric Nordhoff: 47:13

Any final words, Matt, before we we finish up.

Matt Mouzakis: 47:17

No, just want to say thanks for having me on, and enjoyed the conversation, and just love what this community is doing and excited about all that all that you guys are doing to equip and pour into the church and excited for the the songs that are coming out of this. So, yeah, just praising God for for you, and super super thankful to be be part of this movement. So.

Eric Nordhoff: 47:43

Oh, well, we feel the same way about you and Audrey. All right. We'll we'll we'll wrap this up. Thanks everybody for joining us on the writing worship. Podcast you'll hear all the other ways that you can stay connected with us or move on your songwriting journey after this, in the the post message, but for now, thanks, Matt, we'll talk to you all soon. Bye, everybody.

Matt Mouzakis: 48:07

Bye.